#GirlsWhoProduct: Alison Jolly
Alison Jolly is a Product Owner in one of Europe’s leading fashion retailers, Zalando. With over 10 years of experience in the technology space across multiple industries — from mining to government to e-commerce, Alison has wide expertise on solving customer problems with diverse solutions. Diversity and inclusion advocate, melanoma survivor and travel & photography enthusiast — Alison brings her passion for enriching every day to everything she does.
Listen to this interview and discover how photography helps creating balanced and mindful products.
By Katsiaryna Drozhzha on October 8, 2019
K: Today we’re joined by a very special guest. Her name is Alison Jolly and she’s a Product Owner at Zalando. Welcome, Alison!
A: Hi everyone! I am super excited to be here.
K: Alison, how does it feel like to wake up every morning knowing that you are a product owner at one of the largest fashion e-commerce companies in Europe?
A: I feel excited! At Zalando we are working on a lot of super interesting customer problems. Our aim is to be very innovative, and it’s very exciting to be a part of that experience.
K: After reviewing your profile on LinkedIn, I have got the impression that the sky’s the limit for you. You’ve never stopped experimenting, working with different types of industries and products. What is your secret of believing in yourself?
A: It’s really interesting to hear that perspective. It reminds me of my going away party at work, when I was leaving Australia to move to Berlin. People asked, “Wow, why Berlin? Do you have a job there?” I was like, “No!” “ So, do you have a visa? Or you speak the language?” I said, “No”. “Maybe you know someone there? What happens if doesn’t work out?” People again were hearing “no” as an answer.
For me, it’s very important to have this understanding that whatever happens, whether it’s good or bad, that I will be able to handle it. I obviously had the vision of moving here and getting involved in the e-commerce industry. But I didn’t know how that was going to happen. I just knew that whatever situation I was in that I could handle it. There is a difference between being set on the specific destination versus enjoying that journey and believing that whatever the experience is, you will learn from it and it will make you stronger.
K: That’s amazing how bravely you were picking up on the new opportunity. Feels like you were not really scared of the unknown. For example, for almost two years you were working as a product owner at Nextsocial. It is a platform that enables one to sell merchandise to one’s fans directly on social networks. To my knowledge, you had to collaborate with top artists and sports teams like One Republic, Metallica, HSV, etc. Meaning you were dealing with something very sensitive — people’s affection, their love. How different is it to work on the product that is so personal for thousands of people from working on any other product?
A: You’re totally right. These were definitely dedicated fans and they really believed in their artist or a band or a team. In a way that it allowed them to express themselves. It felt like whatever kind of following it was, it helped them to express who they were. In the end, there is a lot of similarities between that and a lot of the products we work on, including fashion. People want to be free to be themselves and express themselves. They want to be accepted by their tribe, whatever that tribe is. I think as product managers, this is one of our aims to help customers do that. And it can be done actively, like making a social product as we do it at Zalando. It also can be done passively. Sometimes you just help customers be more efficient with their time. It allows them to have more time to experience the things that matter to them.
K: As a product manager, were you going through the same experiences as your customers did? For example, did you have to listen to Metallica’s music, trying to understand what their fans really wanted?
A: Yeah, for sure. Every partner that we worked with had their fans and all the fans were different. So we needed to have a platform dedicated to each of these different brands. Part of that is understanding what makes each of them unique. Definitely, it was a challenge to be able to provide something that fits across all of those experiences. Listening to Metallica music is a good way of doing that or going to a football game really gets you in the mood.
K: Sounds very interesting! Actually, a lot of product managers with whom I have talked to, have been prompting the idea that everything is a product. What do you think about this statement and do you agree with it?
A: I wouldn’t say everything is a product. I mean, for sure a lot of things are. Marty Cagan talks about products being the summation of a customer, business and technology. For me, the question is, is something really a product if it doesn’t serve for a customer problem? Or if it isn’t financially viable? Or the technology doesn’t even exist to make it happen? Maybe it is a product. But it would be a bad one.
K: How do we preserve and shelter the genuine side of interhuman relationship in the world of product, in the world of commerce?
A: It’s definitely something that we need to be aware of in product. For me, this is about making sure that we are solving our customer problems in a genuine and meaningful way. This doesn’t mean building a product that has that quick buck. We need to develop products that have an overall experience and bring a real value to customers lives and not something that’s taking away from it.
K: With the massive climate strikes that have been happening around the world, I cannot avoid asking the question on the impact of mass fashion industries on our environment. It is not a secret that the textile production produces lots of pollution. According to some statistics, around 1.2 tonnes of greenhouse gas is emitted by textile production every year. As a product owner at one of the largest fashion companies, do you think that you can bring a change for the better in this industry?
A: Becoming more sustainable is something that everyone needs to contribute to, no matter what the industry it. For sure, Zalando is not any different. We need to be building products with a vision for tomorrow, not just for today.
At Zalando, we do hold the ambition to become a leading online destination for sustainable fashion in Europe by 2020. This is about running our business responsibly and using tech and fashion experience to enable our customers, brands and the industry to make more sustainable choices.
K: What do you think is still lacking in this issue? What are these problems of environmental pollution caused by the industry that the fashion brands themselves are unaware of?
A: I think that the problem is not the unawareness. Brands, in general, can get a lot closer to the customers and understand that this is what the customers want. We want to be able to make more sustainable choices, but we need to be able to make that easier for our customers. Meaning when they are making this decision between a sustainable versus an unsustainable option, to understand what it is that they are buying? What they’re paying for? We can do a lot more to support them in making those decisions.
K: As cloth becomes cheaper and cheaper, people start thinking about it the same way they do with a pizza box. How do we change this mindset? And how do you think we can support local designers and bring them into the market under fair conditions?
A: I guess I disagree that people think about fashion the same way they do as a pizza box. I do think that society generally is becoming more and more aware of the impact that we’re having on the environment. And fashion isn’t any different. At Zalando, we definitely aim to help customers find the pieces that they love, pieces that compliment them and their wardrobe. We also want to help customers care for their fashion that they love, so it can last longer. And when they’re ready to part with it, that we can also continue that circularity and have that piece available for someone else who can find value in it. Generally, there needs to be a lot more transparency for the products and in the overall supply chain. We are working on improving that visibility and making sure that customers know exactly what they’re paying for. We want to protect human rights, decent work and the environment in general.
K: It is very important to set the right example. Especially taking into consideration that Zalando is present in more than 15 countries. Do you see the difference in fashion consumption behaviour depending on the country where you sell?
A: Every market has different needs. There’s different trends and behaviors, and also different weather, right? For example, it’s the rainy season now in Berlin. People start to stock up with their winter clothing, like the rain jackets and umbrellas. Part of building great products for customers is knowing our market. It is especially relevant across over 15 markets and 26 million active customers.
K: Let’s turn our conversation back to your professional career and your product journey in general. You have first started your career in engineering and business development. What made you switch into product?
A: For me, technology was always super interesting and something that I wanted to get involved with. When I first started my career, I didn’t really know what were the opportunities available for me. Engineering seemed like the best place to start. To be honest, I enjoyed the problem-solving aspect of it. Having been given a problem, sitting with it and trying to figure out what would be the best way to solve that and then seeing it implemented in a way that’s making people’s lives easier, that was very interesting. What I was missing is the understanding of “what” and “why” I was building it. That is when I started to get more involved in business development and in general with business improvement. That is also when I started studying my MBA. I loved business development, because this was across a lot of different problems. It got me involved in a lot of processes, including working more on analytical thinking across the entire business. Yet, what I did find after some time working in that field, I was missing technology again. This is when I found product as a way to bring these things together. I started working on these problems, understanding the technology, how does it drive the business, how can we bring this all together to improve value for our customers.
K: As for a woman, was it difficult for you to get your opinion to stand out? Walking into the meeting room where most participants are male must be quite stressful, I suppose?
A: I definitely feel like getting my opinion to stand out was never the problem. I don’t find stressful walking into a meeting where most of the participants are white men. This is mainly because it has been the norm for the majority of my career, unfortunately. The challenge more or the difficulty is to actually be heard. Yes, you do stand out. But to be heard, and for that opinion to be valued, that is a different question. This is really where the complexity is. My approach to that is to understand the audience. We need to understand our customer, what matters to them. In meetings, we also have to understand the perspective of an audience in order to shape the message and to be heard. Part of that can be understanding how your idea or your strategy can bring value to your audience. Bring them along the journey, so that they also understand why you’re proposing this and what this could mean for them and the gratification.
K: Have you ever faced discrimination at the workplace?
A: Yes. When I first started, I was in a team full of men. Generally, I felt the pressure of needing to fit in. And part of that is being involved in conversations that made me feel uncomfortable, but I felt that in order to be accepted by the group, this was what I needed to do. Which, of course, is not what we need to do. And this is something that I have learned on my journey is it’s very important to be yourself. This is what the company wants to have from you. They want to have your diverse opinion. I’ve also been in the environments where I was hired for my expertise on a project, and then being delegated tasks like picking up the milk. Just because I was one of the girls and you know, one of them could do it. It is especially important that we use these moments to give feedback. It doesn’t need to be every moment, but choosing the right moments where it makes sense to stand up for your expertise, your skills, your ideas, and to make sure that you’re being heard and treated fairly.
K: You are a Diversity Guild member. Can you talk more about that? Why is embracing uniqueness so important for you?
A: The Diversity Guild is a volunteer group of employees at Zalando. We volunteer our time to support projects that address issues related to diversity, inclusion and equality.
For example, earlier this year, I’ve been in the initiative to celebrate gender diversity. This involved coordinating over 18 authors across the company and across diverse backgrounds. We shared content across the month, in order to engage, inspire and spark change on this topic.
And another initiative before that was hosting a meetup to help minorities learn skills to negotiate salaries. It’s super important for me, given my background in these different industries that I’ve been in. I feel like there is a lot more that we can do. I’ve also understood now that even if I can solve these problems for myself, it’s not enough. Bringing diversity into our industry isn’t going to happen by one person. It is not going to happen just by the minority. It’s going to happen by getting everyone on board for this and making it happen together. In the Guild, we lead different kinds of initiatives, we talk about personal struggles, but also how we can engage the wider community on these issues.
K: By coincidence, we share the same passion for photography. In my case, photography helps me to take a step back and look around through an intermediate, through the lens. When you are dealing with so much stress (customers, stakeholders, colleagues, etc), don’t you have the same feeling, that sometimes you need to filter the situation, to look at it through the lens of the camera in order to be objective?
A: I think it adds to what I mentioned earlier about understanding your audience and the perspective of these people. Whether it’s your colleagues or your customers, you need to get their pain points and needs to be able to address them. For me, photography is more about awareness and looking for the beauty in every day. Having a camera with you opens your eyes to the environment. You’re always looking out for something interesting. It doesn’t necessarily need to be something beautiful, but something different. And one of my favorite things is when I have been stopping to take a moment, whether it’s like a sunset or there’s like a flower, there is someone else stopping too, having a look and capturing that moment with you. It is super important to have that meditation moment. That is when you acknowledge your surroundings, instead of always being in your mind. Using this objective is important when looking at products as well. We always need to be on the lookout for what is the beauty but also the beast of the product. To see what’s working, what’s not, what do I need to do to raise awareness and why do I need to raise stakeholder's awareness?
K: What a poetic way of viewing at product! Talking about surroundings, you are a world traveler. You’ve been to more than 55 countries, but you still call Australia home. So what is this place that you call home?
A: It’s actually one of the most isolated cities in the world, second only to Honolulu. It is very southwest of Australia. It’s full of beautiful beaches, the great weather, the laid back people and, of course, the kangaroos. But also the sharks and the spiders. They’re there (laughing).
It is a country that has over 40,000 years of Aboriginal history. Obviously, much more recent white history is heavily influenced by the British settlements. It started this culture of life is what you make of it and being kind of supportive of the underdog. I think this also drives me a lot. Whenever I’m working on a project and I hit a roadblock or a wall, I know that there’s a way that I can get around this. I just need to figure out what it is.
K: Does it mean that knowing who you are and where you come from makes you feel stronger?
A: I for sure feel lucky to have been raised in such a safe country. Obviously, not everyone gets that opportunity. And I also enjoy the comfort of knowing it’s there, waiting for me when I’m ready to go back. What does make me feel stronger is knowing that I can also live and thrive outside of my home country. And it definitely makes me very proud to be an expat. There is a saying, “Whenever you hear a foreign accent, it’s a sign of bravery.”
I think it’s so true. For it is very interesting to understand people’s journeys and what they’ve had to do to get to where they are today.
K: I’ve been living a life of an expat for more than six years, so I totally get the feeling:) Alison, we’re coming to an end of our interview and I have the last question to ask. Could you pass a message to the ladies who want to enter into the product world but lack some confidence in themselves? What would be your advice to them?
A: Believe in yourself, believe in your skills! One of the things that I would suggest is thinking of your product career as of your first product. Set yourself a vision, understand what your strengths are. Then define what your development areas are, define your first steps, test it out, get some feedback from peers/people working in the industry/your colleagues. Understand that if you don’t try, then you won’t be able to learn and you won’t be able to move forward. Focus on giving it a go, making sure that you’re learning and this is where you know real growth will happen.
K: Thank you so much, Alison. It was a great pleasure having you with us.
A: Thank you!
Get connected with Alison by email at alison.jolly@zalando.de, drop her a message on LinkedIn.
Alison recommends must 📚 on product and leadership:
Inspired by Marty Cagan
Lean in by Sheryl Sandberg
The Power of Habits by Charles Duhigg
Technically Wrong by Sara Wachter-Boettcher
This project was made possible thanks to our partnership with Zalando Tech. #GirlsWhoProduct is a series of interviews with women that have been able to beat the ‘product’ ceiling and get into the profession. Our mission is to inspire, connect and empower more women to get into product roles and help them consider ‘product’ as a venue of personal and professional growth.
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